Lola and Erica Garza’s Getting Off
We are incredibly pleased to share with you all Lola’s exclusive interview with the writer and sex-positive advocate, Erica Garza!
In case you don’t know, Erica Garza is the author of a beautiful memoir, published in 2018, about her struggle with shame, sex, and self-pleasure/self-punishment: Getting Off: One Woman’s Journey Through Sex and Porn Addiction. I had heard about it and immediately recognized a soul-sister and got the book. I read it cover-to-cover in one night – a night punctuated by masturbatory intermissions. HH found it hidden in the closet (how appropriate) one day and that turned into a little story he wrote about our trip to a wedding.
Other people found our blog through Erica and Erica through our blog. Erica and I struck up a friendship and recently I interviewed her to find out some of the things that left me panting for more after putting the book down.
Erica Garza and her book, Getting Off
L – Your book starts off with the passage: “My favorite porn scene of all time involves two sweaty women, fifty horny men, a warehouse, a harness, a hair dryer, and a taxicab.” You go on to say, no matter how you imagine these elements interacting, “I bet you still can’t imagine just how revolting the scene actually is.” At the end of the book, you are talking to your boyfriend, soon to be husband (spoiler alert!), and he asks you about your favorite porn. You realize that to tell him about this “revolting” scene is dangerous. But telling him was necessary in your journey from sexual shame, guilt, and deception to self-love, acceptance, and honesty. You realize that your greatest fear is “being exposed.” Not as in being naked in front of others, even strangers, but being seen, for who you really are, as a compulsive masturbator who gets off to the revolting. I mention all this because, did you know, that when one does a Google search for “porn, two women, fifty men, warehouse, harness, hair dryer, taxicab,” you pop up as one of the top hits? (After this interview goes live, mysexlifewithlola will probably be the top hit.) Seems like your book was an exercise in “exposing yourself.” How does that make you feel now?
E – You are 100% correct. My book, essays, and interviews are all exercises in exposing myself in the same way as telling my husband about my favorite porn and baring my soul to a room full of addicts at a 12 step meeting. Every time I reveal the things about myself that I used to hate and keep secret, I’m taking the power away from those feelings and transferring that power back to me. Every time I utter a secret aloud and people nod their heads in recognition, I feel less alone, more connected, and more at peace with myself. The things I’m into and the things I’ve done are not so bad, I’ve realized. And that means I’m not so bad either.
L – Your book is dedicated to, “the wankers, the loners, the weirdos, the perverts, the outcasts, the bullied, the flawed, the awkward, the shunned, and the shamed.” Isn’t that all of us at some point in our lives at least?
The author, Erica Garza
E –Totally. I’ve had a lot of different people connect with my story who come from entirely different backgrounds. I’m a 41-year-old Latina from Los Angeles who was raised in a Catholic household, but I’ve been contacted by readers ranging from 12 to 70, men and women, of all different ethnicities, religions, and income brackets. So many of them had the same story: They grew up thinking sex was bad and they hated themselves for enjoying their sexual proclivities in secret. Like me, they were desperate for self-acceptance but didn’t know how to find it. This desperation usually led to destructive and compulsive behaviors and broken relationships. Had we just been taught that there was nothing wrong with us from the start—would that have changed everything? Would we be happier people? I think yes.
L – Throughout the book you mention how you would often bring yourself to orgasm by thinking about “what a miserable slut I am.” Can you explain a bit more how this thought got you off?
E – Shame and pleasure are intricately connected for me. When I first masturbated to orgasm in the bathtub at age 12, I distinctly remember how good it felt and yet how bad I felt once it was over. Nobody had ever talked to me about sex except to say it was something dirty and wrong and so I had this heavy feeling I had discovered something I wasn’t supposed to. And I LOVED it, which made me sick and defective. The only solution to these bad feelings was to go after the pleasure again, reinforcing this intoxicating dichotomy. Later, I would seek out porn that gave me this dose of pleasure and shame, typically scenes of degradation. To be turned on, I had to be turned off, disgusted with myself. This then transferred over to my relationships. I wanted men to make me feel used in bed, demeaned, and then discarded afterward.
L – Your book is fascinating because it’s not only a personal coming-of-age story, but it also tracks the development of on-line porn. You talk about watching porn on VHS with your brother’s girlfriend and sneaking sex chats on-line right in front of your parents, then you chronicle the first porno sites on the internet right up to the proliferation of humiliation, extreme BDSM, and more. It’s like you grew up with porn and the porn industry grew up with you. Your book is also unusual as a memoir because it contains a lot of footnotes to studies and research about the effects of porn and women self-reporting about their use of porn. What is your take on porn’s popularity now and how women in particular use it. I guess, I’m thinking especially of OnlyFans and the many women during the pandemic who found ways of becoming entrepreneurs (or “entrepornors”).
OF Content Creator StrawberryWine @swtlikestrawber
E – I’m here for it. I find OnlyFans to be a fantastic addition to the porn world because it allows women to be in charge of their own content. Sure, we have many more female porn producers/directors, but I think it’s safe to say it’s still a male dominated industry when it comes to who’s operating the camera. I’m excited to see women taking initiative in making porn as long as they’re not merely perpetuating what they think men want. But I’m even more excited about women as viewers. I’m not sure about how many women are turning to OnlyFans for porn, but it would be fascinating data. If more women talked about what we like and what we want and what we’re willing to pay for, the less shame we’ll feel about our desires.
It’s funny you say I grew up with the porn industry and the porn industry grew up with me. It’s so accurate. And while I’m not anti-porn (unless the porn is made without someone’s consent of course), I do worry about what kids have access to when they’re just starting to explore their sexuality. When I was 12 and first started masturbating and looking at porn, I only had access to softcore scenes on Cinemax. They were so mild and still left a lot of room for my imagination. And when I advanced to watching porn online, scenes took so long to load so I couldn’t get caught up in a binge—endlessly searching for a harder, darker, sexier scene than the last. It was too much effort. Now the internet is at a place where a 12 year old could look up “two women, fifty men, a warehouse, a harness, hair dryer, and a taxicab,” or any other hardcore scene. And this is the new mild. Once they get bored with that, they can instantly search for something harder but they haven’t even discovered sex in real life yet. When they do start to explore with someone, their idea of what sex should look or feel like is likely to be distorted. They’ll probably end up performing; instead of naturally discovering what they like or what feels good, their desires will have been finely curated by whatever they had access to. I think this could be really damaging.
Porn Star Shannon Tweed
Dreaming of Shannon Tweed and Lola Down
L – You mention being enamored of such VHS stars as Shannon Tweed, and lusting for Tommy Lee’s long shlong, Pamela Anderson’s tits, and the power Gwyneth Paltrow’s character of Estella had over Finn in Great Expectations. Does anyone come to mind today as either a quick fap fave, a girl-crush, or a role model?
Gwyneth Paltrow
E –Besides you, Lola? 😉 I don’t watch porn much these days (which is so weird to say), but when I do I like Megan Salinas who I’m not sure even performs anymore. I think her videos are a few years old. My girl crushes are always evolving though I just finished watching White Lotus so the Italian actress Simona Tabasco (Lucia) comes to mind. I’m also inspired by Paulina Porizkova who is nearly 60 and so hot and comfortable in her skin without looking plastic.
Scene from White Lotus Season II
L – You say, “In all the movies I’d ever watched, men were the ones who made the first move. Women, it seemed, either played hard to get and were labeled dick-teasing prudes, or they quickly gave in and were called sluts and whores.” This is the old Freudian dichotomy of Virgin/Whore. For a long time, it seemed that either/or was the only choice society or culture presented for women. If you were young, you were either a virgin or a whore. If you were older, you were either matronly or a whore. Women could never be both. What do you think of the movement to reclaim the word “slut” from being a pejorative to a badge of honor?
Megan Salinas
Simona Tabasco
Paulina Porizkova is a dirty girl
Paulina Porizkova wins the solitary mud-wrestling prize
Paulina Porizkova – wash me!
Paulina Porizkova like a fine wine
E –We’re making some progress with more women being open about their sex lives but we still have a long way to go, especially in the U.S. This country is so ridiculously misogynistic. Just scroll through the comments section of any article written about a woman’s love life and the evidence is in plain view.
L – Along those same lines, one thing I’ve encountered, even with my man, HH, is people saying, “Wow, you have the libido of a man.” Isn’t that also a double-standard? I mean, men who do or did the things you did are just “guys being guys,” but a woman doing it is somehow labeled with a disorder and many of them feel guilt and shame about it. But if you were a man, would you feel that sort of shame or guilt?
E –The only solution to this is for more women to speak up. But to speak about what you want and need sexually requires self-awareness. If you’ve been taught that sex is shameful, it’s possible you ended up in a cycle of repression. You don’t even know what you like anymore and if you do, you’re keeping that to yourself. The more honest and comfortable women are about their sexuality, the more we’ll see that men and women are more alike than we think.
L – I love when you talk about the power that Gwyneth Paltrow had over Finn. Do you think that writing your book was a way of reclaiming your feminine sexual power?
Female Sexual Power
E – Absolutely. When I first suspected I had an addiction to sex and porn, I thought I had to put myself in a box to be “recovered.” I would never watch porn again, I’d go to 12 step meetings, I’d only be in a monogamous relationship. But that quickly started to feel inauthentic. It felt like an extension of my early childhood shame, like I was desperate to stop doing things that felt good. I realized that the driving force of my addiction all along was that shame. That’s when I started to explore how I could be a sexually open-minded, experimental person and not feel bad about it. This entailed not lying to myself and not lying to others, being open in my communication, and ultimately not thriving on destruction. Realizing I could be sexual without shame was an empowering revelation.
L – You talk about the sexy and nude photos and homemade porno movies you made with different boyfriends and the fear you have of those ever resurfacing. Has that happened? I mean, after the success and popularity of the book, one of your exes must have heard about it and read about you. Did any of them come forward, either privately or publicly, with “naughty” goods?
E – Surprisingly, no! And I didn’t even use a pen name. I also expected past lovers to reach out and comment on the book, ESPECIALLY if I wrote explicitly about them! But it never happened. No videos have ever resurfaced (yet!) though I would be curious to see that younger version of myself tbh.
L – You say that your “preferences were changing all the time. I loved ‘old and young’ clips. I’d also taken a liking to watching drunken girls get walked around on leashes at parties or get fucked by groups of men while seemingly unconscious. I’d discovered the category ‘bukkake’ and felt simultaneously disgusted and excited every time I watched multiple men come all over a girl’s face before urging her to lick up the drips that had fallen on the carpet beneath her. I didn’t consider any of this normal.” It wouldn’t exist if people didn’t watch it. I mean, what is normal anyway?
E – Who knows. That line of thinking came from a place of deep shame and self-disgust and judgement. I felt so isolated and broken in this shame and couldn’t imagine anyone else would understand. But, like I said, if more women spoke up about what they liked and what they’re into, the less alone people like me would feel.
L – I love the passage where you combine what you learned meditating with your active imagination. You say, “Suddenly I was the girl on the shore of that river I’d imagined in meditation. I watched a boat come by with a skinny blond college girl spread-eagle on its main deck getting fucked by a whole fraternity. And then another boat where a girl on a leash was held facedown by a man’s boot while another man fucked her from behind. Each time I came, I returned to my breath.” When you’re done, you admit to yourself that you’re “out of control.” For people wondering, how would you characterize unhealthy from healthy masturbatory practices or porn viewing?
Role Models
E –That’s not up to me to say. Each person’s experience is different. For me, feeling incapable of stopping seemed to be a clue. Even when I felt sore or numb. Finding that I’d wasted hours trying to find the perfect clip, especially if it meant neglecting other plans or responsibilities was another. Failing to nurture real relationships or friendships in pursuit of another orgasm also seemed problematic.
L – At one point you talk about a guy you were with and how when you ran out of things to talk about or it got awkward, you reached for “what I’d always reached for to help me with the awkwardness. I initiated sex whenever I felt things getting weird. I was tireless with blow jobs, encouraging him to come on my face, begging him to slap me, to fuck me harder, to hurt me, to do whatever he wanted, playing the role of the perfect, pleasing porn girl.” Do you think that your exposure to hard-core porn led you to believe that this was what men wanted, or was it a thrill and a turn-on to play this role? I mean, so much in life is role playing, including sex and it can be fun. And sometimes it can be difficult to disentangle where your own desire ends and trying to meet the desire of someone else begins. Or maybe there is no clear distinction.
E –I think it’s all about balance. If your fetish is that you’re into degradation, rough sex, humiliation, role play, then why not? You do what feels good, but then at some point you leave the bedroom and life goes on. For me, that degradation leaked out of the bedroom and into real life. I didn’t just expect a guy to make me feel used and demeaned in bed as roleplay, I also expected him to ignore my calls, say abusive things, and lie to me afterward. I did not feel worthy of love and respect, so when someone tried to give those things to me I’d run away and destroy the relationship. But I desperately wanted love and respect. I felt lonely and isolated and the only company I could keep was sexual company. What was friendship? What was intimacy? What was connection? I wanted to know these things but had no idea how.
L – Was there anything that you had originally written for the book that the editor or publisher asked you to remove?
E – The footnotes were originally integrated into the text, but they were found to be distracting. They were almost cut out completely but I really wanted to keep them in. The research proved that what I was going through (and what my reader might be going through) was way more common than most people think. So many of our struggles are universal, yet we feel so alone much of the time. I hoped that the research would show readers they’re not simply “fucked up,” but that there’s likely a scientific explanation behind their feelings and actions.
L – As I mentioned, your memoir is intertwined with the historical development of internet porn. One of the positive things I see about that development is that a lot of people, especially women, trans folk, and others have been able to connect with communities out there and realize that they’re not alone, not the “the wankers, the loners, the weirdos, the perverts, the outcasts, the bullied, the flawed, the awkward, the shunned, and the shamed” to whom you dedicated the book, but that they are part of humanity in all its beautifully multifarious forms. HH, because he’s older, frequently tells me that so much of what is normal human activity was totally in the closet when he was younger, especially female masturbation. One thing that the internet porn might have influenced is the normalization of women pleasuring themselves. I mean, once upon a time you never saw it, but it’s now part of so many popular shows and movies – Sex & the City, Seinfeld, Weeds, Fleabag, SMILF, New Girl, The Shape of Water, Sex Education, Broad City, just to name a few. Women are sexual beings. We can be students, moms, daughters, sisters, wives, bosses, and also get off without going to Hell. Do you think that girls growing up today are exposed to a healthier view of women’s sexuality than when you grew up?
SMILF with Frankie Shaw Look Carefully and you’ll see what gets Frankie Shaw off.
SMILF
Frankie Shaw asks, “Do you like my poster of Lola Down?”
Frankie Shaw in SMILF in a scene where she gets off to Lola Down
E – Yes, our entertainment has become more inclusive and I love seeing these realistic, multi-dimensional folks be represented. But let’s not forget that Roe v. Wade just got overturned, which has everything to do with female sexuality and bodily autonomy. Sexism still exists because the wage gap still exists, because doctors still gaslight women, because we still haven’t elected a female president…and so forth. These things may seem unrelated to women masturbating, but the personal is political. It always has been. Female pleasure is powerful and people are afraid of this power. Women and lots of marginalized folks are still socialized to believe our pleasure doesn’t matter. And d this has huge implications. I’m so inspired by pleasure activism, specifically the work by author adrienne maree brown who ways capitalism creates a “false scarcity” of pleasurable experiences for the marginalized. We’re taught that “our health, our votes, our work, our safety, our families, our lives don’t matter – not as much as those of white men.” Simply put, being denied pleasure makes us easier to control. So, yes, I get excited when I see female characters on our TV set pursuing personal pleasure just as male characters always have, but I won’t be satisfied until I see those larger equalities at play in other aspects of our lives.
L – Toward the end of the book, after you met the man who would become your husband, and after you began writing publicly about your struggles and began being honest with him and yourself about your past, you begin to find some balance or at least a temporary truce with your inner demons, for lack of a better description. If I’m not getting too personal, how much of your past plays a role in your present? Or, another way of asking that is, do you and your husband enjoy “getting off” to some of your past sexcapades? Does he find it sexy to hear about, or is it something that you two avoid?
Erica – Take me as I am
E – My husband does not like hearing about my sexual past. Not because he’s judgmental or embarrassed or possessive, it just doesn’t turn him on I guess. I’ve written about us going to a swingers resort where we we explored quite a bit and enjoyed ourselves, but he didn’t like watching me with other men. And I didn’t really watch him either, which is weird because I do sometimes fantasize about him sleeping with other women. I just haven’t felt the need to watch the real thing happen. Sometimes, the fantasy is hotter.
L – In 2015, in an article you wrote for narratively.com, you said, “Masturbating beside my husband while he sleeps is the last secret I’ve kept from him. Although I’m beginning to fear that it’s actually just the latest secret. My resistance in telling him only proves how fragile recovery is. This week it’s masturbation. But maybe next week it’s back to porn binging. Or obsessive scrolling through Craigslist personals. Or lying about my whereabouts. And so forth. Abstaining from these habits, when so readily available, without abstaining from sexual pleasure completely, or the shame I’ve long bound to it, is a challenge I face daily.” Looking back on that now, how have you fared over the past seven years?
E – It has been a rollercoaster of up and downs. Of me (and us) figuring out what we like and what we don’t, what’s right for us and what’s off limits, what feels safe and what feels dangerous or destructive. But I like the process. Humans evolve and so do our sex lives and I’m grateful to be with someone I could be 100% honest with.
L – What is your sexual life like now – I mean, with yourself and with your partner or partners? In the book you seem open to threesomes and other non-monogamous situations. Have you found a way that works for you individually and you as a couple?
E – We’re open minded but not in an open relationship. So while we do experiment with others, we only do so as a couple. Honesty is sacred to us. We always have conversations before we do anything with anyone else and then we have conversations after that about what we will or won’t do next time.
L – In some articles you wrote after the book came out, you talk about going to nudist resorts with your husband and having “soft-swaps.” You also mention “relapsing” after marriage and sneaking off to masturbate to porn – at least until you came home one day and caught him doing the same thing. Then you lifted the prohibition you had on porn in your relationship and found out something surprising – you two could integrate it into your lives together. Can you talk about that balance? I mean, unlike drug and alcohol addiction, you can’t really ever cut sex, sexuality, or sexual fantasy out of your life 100%. No one is a tee-total reformed sex addict, because we, as human beings, are sexual beings. How have you and your husband been able to navigate that?
E— Unless you’re joining a convent, you’re going to have to find a way to integrate sex (and maybe porn) back into your life in a healthy way. For me, I know the difference between when I’m watching porn to escape a difficult feeling or watching because I simply want to, because it feels good. It’s a fine line and takes a lot of self awareness but it’s possible.
L – In an article you once wrote about the difficulty of being a porn-addicted feminist. You said, “You want to stop because the hypocrisy is so intense it makes you nauseous. You call yourself a feminist, an activist, a conscious citizen, but then you watch women get walked around on leashes and your panties get soaked through. . . [and] you’ll scan over all the gangbangs and golden showers, convinced (or at least hopeful) that your sickness isn’t a sickness, but a natural fascination.” That was in 2016, three years after Belle Knox, a.k.a. Miriam Weeks, was outed as the Duke University porn star and she defended her decisions as her form of feminism. Since then many women have made names and careers for themselves in porn – both in front of the camera and behind it – and have promoted ethical porn and feminist porn. What’s your take on the possibility that porn and feminism are not mutually exclusive?
E – Bodily autonomy and consent is everything. If a woman wants to be a sex worker, she should be allowed to do that. It’s her body. If a woman is coerced into sex work and she feels she has no other choice, that is an entirely different thing.
L – Something I love about the book is your frequent literary references. In addition to porn, you clearly have an affinity for literature. Some favorite authors, books, or movies you go back to frequently?
E – I don’t often reread books, but when I do, it’s usually A Moveable Feast because I find Paris and Hemingway both sexy as hell. Otherwise I feast myself on memoirs, biographies, journals, anything confessional and real. Right now I’m reading (and adoring) I’m Glad My Mom Died by Jeanette McCurdy, who also had some familiar conflicted feelings about sex and love and her body.
L – A little self-indulgent inquiry now. You reached out to me recently and hinted that you’ve been reading the blog. Are we – HH and me – a part of your sexual fantasy life or your erotic life with your husband? Be honest.
E – For now, your blog is a solitary pleasure. I’m not ready to share you yet 😉
“Don’t be. Erica Garza says you’re just a woman with a healthy libido.”
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