WARNING! THIS POST MAY NOT BE FOR YOU. IF YOU DON’T LIKE IT, JUST IGNORE IT.

But, it may also be educational for you.

Totally Taboo

For all you devoted readers of MySexLifeWithLola, you are probably aware that some of our posts are on the more risqué side of sex blogging.  Various of our friends – MILF Meri, Lilly, and even Lo and her sister Robie – engage in sexual practices that are not to everyone’s taste.  We have heard from a lot of you and, for those of you who love these relationships and those of you struggling, we bring you this insightful interview with the pioneer researcher and therapist of some of the most ticklish taboos: bestiality and incest.  Consider this your trigger warning.

Taboos – Popular, Hidden, and Unthinkable – and Interview with Hani Miletski:

In her groundbreaking work on Mother-Son incest, Hani Miletski says about her study that it “provides arguments to support the assumption that the apparent rarity of mother-son incest has more to do with society’s inhibitions and inability to accept the fact that this form of incest exists than with the actual taboo’s strength.  It is as though the taboo is about preventing the belief that mother-son incest exists rather than about preventing it from actually happening.”  Over a hundred years since Freud’s famous “Seduction Theory” shocked the Victorian Age by suggesting that incestuous relationships (mostly involving minors and abuse) happened far more frequently than anyone suspected or was willing to admit, society is still unwilling to admit one form of incest – that involving a desiring mother.

In addition to Miletski’s work, there is also the fine scholarship done in 1992 by Beverly Ann Ogilvie who wrote The Experience of Mother-Daughter Incest, and one earlier work, from 1987, by Karen Louise Kenney, who wrote, Maternal Incest: An Annotated Review of the Literature on Mother-Daughter and Mother-Son Incest.

Taking the taboos of society one step further, there is the radical study by Miletski, Understanding Bestiality and Zoophilia, in which she engages in primary research with 26 men and 6 women, all of whom engaged in some degree of bestiality and/or zoophilia.  The research was undertaken to understand these people and how they understand themselves.

If you’re interested in this work, then you will want to read this brief interview with Miletski.

1. You really tackle the most difficult, taboo, and even repressed topics – Mother-Son incest and bestiality. Why? What originally got you interested in these topics?

I like to research topics that I don’t know much about.  It makes any research project much more interesting.

Mother-Son Incest started as my master’s thesis.  I was doing my MSW at Catholic University in DC, and I knew I will be pursuing my certification in sex therapy as soon as I graduate.  So, I wanted my thesis to be about some topic related to sexuality.  But, being at a Catholic university, I couldn’t write about orgasms or erectile dysfunctions, for example, so I chose to write about sexual abuse.  My advisor wanted me to be more specific, so I chose incest.  That was not specific enough for my advisor, so I chose mother-son incest because I had never heard of it at that time, and I was thinking that my thesis will end up being about why mother-son incest never happens, until I started researching it…

Understanding Bestiality and Zoophilia started as my doctorate dissertation.  At that time, I was already working as a sex therapist, and one of my clients was into sex with dogs.  I had already started researching the topic because I didn’t know what to do with her, so when it came time to choose a topic for my dissertation, that was an obvious choice, as there was really nothing out there about people who cannot stop thinking of, and wanting to, and having sex with animals.

2. What was your approach with that patient who was into sex with dogs then and how would it be different after you did your research?

My approach has not changed.  I believe the most important thing as a therapist is to be non-judgmental, open-minded, empathic, curious, attentive, and supportive.  The answers to any questions/problems come from working together with the client, as a team, as we explore various possibilities until we find the best solution.  In my client’s case, she felt extreme shame about her behavior, and she wanted to stop having sex with dogs, but could not.  I helped her realize and accept that this was a sexual orientation that she, obviously, did not choose for herself.  I helped her realize and accept that she was not doing any harm to the dogs (she only had sex with male dogs – they were penetrating her).  And I helped her learn how to be careful so she doesn’t get caught.

3. You mentioned that you had been turned down by at least ten publishers. Did you find it difficult to get your work peer reviewed and published? What sorts of obstacles did you face? What did publishers or even your colleagues say about your work?

I tried to get the book Understanding Bestiality and Zoophilia published, but no publisher wanted to touch this subject.  They simply told me that this is not a topic they were interested in, so I ended up self-publishing the book and I have not tried to get it published by a publishing house anymore.   This was 22 years ago.

My colleagues were against my writing my dissertation about this topic, let alone publishing it.  They thought it would pigeon-hole me and it would make potential future clients shy away from seeking my help.  I obviously did not listen to them.  There were probably people over the years who did not contact me for this reason, but the people who did always told me that they felt comfortable telling me all their hidden secrets because if I could deal with bestiality, I could probably deal with everything else.

4. In Understanding Bestiality and Zoophilia, you explicitly open up the question as to bestials or zoophiles being a “sexual orientation.” But you don’t ever take that approach with the mother-son study. Do you think that there is a certain contingent of women out there who are only attracted to either their children (sons, daughters), or to young people? In the wake of every sensational news story about women who seduce minors, especially if the perpetrator is attractive, like Debra Lafave, people always ask, “Why would she do that if she could get anyone she wanted because she’s so beautiful/sexy?” But they don’t seem to understand that it’s not merely about getting physical sexual needs met. What do you think?

I believe there are women who are sexually oriented toward minors, just like some men are.  I honestly never thought about a sexual orientation toward one’s own children, but I guess anything is possible.

5. Have you read the book Tampa? If so, what are your thoughts?

I have not read this book, but just from the write up about it, it looks like a similar story to the Mary Kay Letourneau scandal, in the early 90s.

6. When you published Mother-Son Incest in 1995, were you aware of or had you read Beverly Ann Ogilvie’s 1992 study, The Experience of Mother-Daughter Incest? If you’re familiar with it, what similarities and differences do you find in the two taboo relationships?

Unfortunately, I have not been aware of this study.  I was aware of Rosencrans’ (1997) study of 93 daughters and nine sons who had been sexually abused by their mothers.  Nine men heard about her study and asked to participate in it.  She ended up adding a chapter in her book (The Last Secret: Daughters Sexually Abused by Mothers) about these nine men.  Although all nine men admitted to having had incestuous relationships with their mothers, 89 percent of the sons (eight men) believed they had a normal childhood, compared to only two percent of the 93 daughters.  All nine men felt they were their mothers’ lovers and did not perceive themselves as victims.

7. When you did your study on bestials and zoos, you mention a few times about how new the internet is and how new you were to it. Since then, the internet has developed quite a bit. Have you seen what people are posting now depicting bestiality? What are your thoughts?

Last I checked, it’s all about pornography.  All the online groups/listservs/websites/etc. that used to be around when I was doing my study, they all disappeared.  The ones that came after, came and went.  They always face threats from outsiders and sometimes even from within the community.  It’s a shame.

8. Desiring women have become more prevalent in popular culture, whether we’re talking Frankie Shaw’s character in MILF, Mary-Louise Parker’s character in Weeds, Zooey Deschanel’s character in The New Girl, or Y tu mamá también. All these popular shows include the desirous dimension of women in ways that were taboo not long ago. Do you think that, as a culture, America is ready to explore the famous “dark continent” of women’s sexuality, as Freud called it?

I think this question is too theoretical.  I think the U.S. has come a long way regarding the acceptance of women’s sexuality, but the U.S. is very large, with a huge population, many various cultures, and countless opinions, so I would not attempt to make such a guess.

9. Both bestiality and mother-son incest are among the more prevalent themes in Greco-Roman mythology. How do you account for that?

They are among the most taboo in practically every culture.  The more something is taboo, the more curious people are about it.  It’s human nature.  And, by the way, these two themes are also among the most popular pornographic themes and the most visited sites.

10. One of the most obvious, yet least discussed, images of mother-son incest is in the depiction of Venus and Cupid/Aphrodite and Eros.  They are considered mother and son and often depicted in sexually suggestive poses.  Given that these are the mythical origins of sexual desire, do you think there is something deep in our psyche that ties sexuality with this primary relationship?

There probably is something deep in our psyche that ties sexuality with this primary relationship.  I talk about it in my book.

11. What about mother-daughter incest?  Though you call mother-son incest “the unthinkable broken taboo,” wouldn’t mother-daughter incest, since it is almost never depicted (in myth, legend, art, or psychological studies), be even more “unthinkable” for that very reason?

Very possible.  In my book/thesis I was focusing on mother-son incest, but that does not mean that mother-daughter incest is not, or maybe even more, unthinkable.